Gotûbêj:Septimius Seuerus
Şiroveya dawî: berî 3 salan ji aliyê GPinkerton ve di mijara v - u? de
| Ev rûpela gotûbêjê ji bo nîqaşên li ser pêşvexistina Septimius Seuerus e. Ev ne forumek e ku li ser mijara gotarê nîqaşên gelemper li dar bixin. |
Polîtîkayên gotaran
|
| Çavkaniyê lê bigere: Google (kitêb · nûçe · zanyarî · wêneyên azad · WP çavk) · JSTOR · NYT · Kitêbxaneya WPyê |
v - u?
biguhêre@GPinkerton: These names should remain as in their European counterparts. There is absolutely no need to change v to u. --Balyozxane (gotûbêj) 18:42, 6 nîsan 2021 (UTC)
- @Balyozxane: On the contrary, there is no need to change "u" to "v". The "u" is the original (European) name. The "v" is pronounced "u" where it is written as "v" (usually carved into stone where the round "u" is more difficult a shape to carve). The spelling with "v" is a typographic convention exclusive to western European languages; it does not exist in the Romans' names in the normal Latin alphabet, or in the Greek alphabet, which was used throughout the middle east while these emperors ruled over what was later Kurdistan (etc). There is no need to translate the English "v" into Kurdish; it really should not be there. This is also true of the letter "J", which does not exist in Latin ("I" is used). GPinkerton (gotûbêj) 18:50, 6 nîsan 2021 (UTC)
- There is a bigger question though: would it be more appropriate to use transliterations of the Romans' Greek names rather than their Latin ones? Should it be Constantinus or Konstantinos, for example? I suspect the current title of "Konstantînê Mezin" is a attempt to fit the English spelling (though not pronunciation) of "Constantine" into Kurdish orthography, rather than a genuine Kurdish equivalent for the name. Konstantinos/Constantinus are both the "original" European and western Asian names, but while "Constantinus" is the Romans' own language's way of writing the name, "Konstantinos" was how the ancient inhabitants of what is now Kurdistan wrote the name in Greek characters. Konstantinos or Constantinus? Tiberius or Tiberios? Iulius Caesar or Ioulios Kaisar? The pronunciations are all the same, and note that English's "Julius Caesar" should not be carried over into Kurdish; the "J" was never there. GPinkerton (gotûbêj) 19:07, 6 nîsan 2021 (UTC)
- @GPinkerton The best practice is to go by the sources. You can easily find "Konstantîn" in Kurdish sources but nothing for "Konstantinos or Constantinus". I strongly oppose any change that solely adheres to etymology rather than Kurdish written works. If there is none, then you gotta use the European ones until it can actually be verified. Balyozxane (gotûbêj) 19:53, 6 nîsan 2021 (UTC)
- As in the English Wikipedia, the names used should be the Romans' own names where an equivalent does not exist. So, if there is no Kurdish name for Traianus, the name should be the Romans' own (Traianus) rather than a translation from French or Russian or some other non-relevant language. My point is that while western European languages use versions based on the Romans' Latin names, Kurdish names like Konstantîn come from the Romans' Greek names (i.e. like Konstantinos). So, for consistency, Traianos (Greek version) might be preferable to the Latin version Traianus. Then again, published sources usually divide the Roman Empire into an earlier empire that spoke Latin and for whose emperors scholars often use Latin (or Latin-derived) names, and a later ("Byzantine") empire for which transliterations of Greek names are used. It could be that it is better to use Latin names until, say, the 7th century, and Greek transliterated ones thereafter. This is often done in English-language (and other Western-language) sources, but in the eastern Mediterranean and the Middle East, the Greek names are the local ones. The transliterated-Greek spellings are also closer phonetically to how the names should be/are pronounced. Then there is the question about the family's names. If there's "Konstantîn", that will might look odd next to his father Constantius, his children Constans and Constantina, and his sister Constantia, and so on. What do you think? I see that Konstantînopolîs (more like Greek) is used (rather than Latin "Constantinopolis"). GPinkerton (gotûbêj) 21:28, 6 nîsan 2021 (UTC)
- See: en:U#History. Latin names have "v"s in some European modern languages by an accident of historical typography in Early Modern printing presses. In those days, capital "U" did not exist, and the capital "u" was instead "V". As a result, English Wikipedia acknowledges in its Manual of Style that (for things like inscriptions, manuscripts) allows "small capitals" to be used, and recommends that in this case, "V" should be used where "u" or "U" might appear. (Romans wrote Latin either in ALLCAPS or nocaps.)(en:Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#All_caps_and_small_caps). The point is, in Roman emperors' names, "u" and "v" are the same letter, and there is no reason to distinguish them in a Kurdish Latin alphabet which does not have the same history of typography as English typography. The name "Flavius" in English can either be written "flauius" or "FLAVIVS"; "Flavius" is not something that is correct. GPinkerton (gotûbêj) 00:06, 7 nîsan 2021 (UTC)
- As in the English Wikipedia, the names used should be the Romans' own names where an equivalent does not exist. So, if there is no Kurdish name for Traianus, the name should be the Romans' own (Traianus) rather than a translation from French or Russian or some other non-relevant language. My point is that while western European languages use versions based on the Romans' Latin names, Kurdish names like Konstantîn come from the Romans' Greek names (i.e. like Konstantinos). So, for consistency, Traianos (Greek version) might be preferable to the Latin version Traianus. Then again, published sources usually divide the Roman Empire into an earlier empire that spoke Latin and for whose emperors scholars often use Latin (or Latin-derived) names, and a later ("Byzantine") empire for which transliterations of Greek names are used. It could be that it is better to use Latin names until, say, the 7th century, and Greek transliterated ones thereafter. This is often done in English-language (and other Western-language) sources, but in the eastern Mediterranean and the Middle East, the Greek names are the local ones. The transliterated-Greek spellings are also closer phonetically to how the names should be/are pronounced. Then there is the question about the family's names. If there's "Konstantîn", that will might look odd next to his father Constantius, his children Constans and Constantina, and his sister Constantia, and so on. What do you think? I see that Konstantînopolîs (more like Greek) is used (rather than Latin "Constantinopolis"). GPinkerton (gotûbêj) 21:28, 6 nîsan 2021 (UTC)
- @GPinkerton The best practice is to go by the sources. You can easily find "Konstantîn" in Kurdish sources but nothing for "Konstantinos or Constantinus". I strongly oppose any change that solely adheres to etymology rather than Kurdish written works. If there is none, then you gotta use the European ones until it can actually be verified. Balyozxane (gotûbêj) 19:53, 6 nîsan 2021 (UTC)